Melody Clouser

I work with a lot of growers, and when I think sustainability, the first person who really comes to my mind is Rob.

Rob DeFreese

Mother nature is pretty powerful. And if you take care of that biology and do the right thing, she’s going to take care of you at the end of the day.

Dusty Weis

Welcome to the FARMSMART Podcast, presented by Nutrien Ag Solutions, where every month we're talking to sustainable agriculture experts from throughout the industry.

As the leading source of insight for growers on evolving their sustainability practices while staying grounded in agronomic proof, FARMSMART is where sustainability meets opportunity.

We don't just talk change, we're out in the field helping you identify products, practices and technologies that bring the future to your fields faster. I'm Dusty Weis.

Sally Flis

And I'm Dr. Sally Flis, Director of Sustainable Ag Programs, and today we’re joined by:

Rob DeFreese, a grower from Indiana and one of our latest Sustainable Success Champions.

We’re also joined by Melody Clouser, Rob’s crop consultant from the Central Indiana Division in Attica. Rob and Melody, thanks for joining us.

Melody Clouser

Thank you.

Rob DeFreese

Thanks for having us.

Sally Flis

So, Rob, let's start with you. Why don't you start by telling us a little bit about your operation?

What do you grow? How many acres and how long have you been working the land?

Rob DeFreese

Yeah. So we're located here in Tippecanoe County, which is in west central Indiana. Our family moved over from the Netherlands in 1854, and so that'd be the first generation of farmers here. And then some records that I dug up is that the second and third generation were farmers as well. And then you kind of get into the part that I remember as a kid, which would be my grandfather.

He'd be the fourth generation that moved down to the area that we're still currently in. And he moved down there in 1946. He was a tenant farmer back then, so he didn't get an opportunity to buy any ground till the 60s. So that ground that he purchased in the 60s, we still farm today. And then my dad and my uncle being the fifth generation, they were able to purchase the home place that my grandfather started working on in 1946.

So then you get to present time here, and my cousin and I would be the sixth generation of farmers in Tippecanoe County. We try to continue that legacy on and we farm about 3500 acres. It's given us an opportunity to share labor and equipment back and forth. Also open the door to be able to go out and do some custom work for some other neighbors in the community.

So, you know, all that is kind of important to say, because after I graduated high school, I was like, well, what am I going to do next? And there really probably wasn't enough for me to come back to the operation. And farming was tough, you know, in the 80s and 90s and hard on my parents and so they always encouraged me to go to Purdue and get a job and make a lot of money and just farm on the side as a hobby, you know.

And so I thought, well, I guess I'll give that a go. We live close to Purdue, so we're about 20 minutes south of there. So I was able to live at home and work on the farm and show livestock and work at cattle shows and pay for my schooling, but still nothing really interested me in terms of going somewhere else and getting a job.

I always kind of wanted to come back to the farm so yeah. I ended up graduating from Purdue. I was on the livestock judging team there. That was a good experience. I had an internship in Montana for the American Simmental Association. So after all that was done, I was like, all right, I want to come back and farm.

But the only problem was there's only about 200 acres that I could come back to farm too, and my dad raised a lot of cattle, so a lot of that was in fences and pasture and hayfield. And so it was going to be something where I had to figure out how I was going to make that work.

And that's where the whole regenerative farming and sustainable farming and tearing out the fences and trying to make it profitable, I guess, because I knew that I wasn't going to be the biggest farmer. So I had to figure out a way to be a better farmer and a more profitable farmer.

So here I am now. It's hard to believe, but it's my 16th crop. And so starting out with 200 acres, I've been able to grow that to about 700 acres of the ground that I manage on my own. And then, yeah, still able to farm with my cousin and raise some livestock and do some custom work along the side.

So been able to make it work.

Dusty Weis

That’s an incredible story, an incredible legacy of agriculture there in Tippecanoe County. I want to learn a little bit more about your background, Melody, but can you rival 172 years and six generations in Tippecanoe?

Melody Clouser

No, because I am a transplant. I am not originally from Tippecanoe County. I've been with Nutrien for five years. Prior to that, I was an independent seed dealer and sold cover crops and happened to be located down the road from Rob and had mutual friends prior to him coming back to farm. So when he came back, he came down and we met and told me what his goals were.

And you know, how are we going to kind of meet those goals? So my main focus has always been seed. I'm a Purdue graduate as well in ag econ, and I did take that corporate way, moved around some with the corporate side of things, and decided when our kids got to be a certain age that it was just time for me to settle down a little bit more and stop traveling as much and so ended up being a seed dealer and started working with Rob and still on this journey with him.

Sally Flis

That's great. Melody, our Sustainable Success Champions program at Nutrien is a program where the crop consultants nominate themselves, along with a grower customer that they work with. So what made you want to fill out that and submit that nomination for the program with you and Rob and the practices that you guys work on together?

Melody Clouser

Yeah, I think when I think about the sustainability, I mean, really a lot of the things that Rob'stried through the years, with the cover crops, the no-till, really exploring the soil biology and soil health around it.

So when I think sustainability, I mean, the first person that really comes to my mind is Rob. And I work with a lot of growers, and for him to continue to keep that mindset of soil biology, soil health, want to make the soil better for the next generation and actually really future generations beyond that, he's just the person I think of, and he challenges me every day to try to make him better as well.

So we don't ever really do anything without knowing that it's going to be better for his soil and better for his soil biology, because he works really hard to bump that up, that we don't want to go backwards in any of that.

Dusty Weis

Rob, it sounds like you guys are really, really close as far as a relationship between a customer and a provider goes, but what role has Melody played in the success that you've experienced, would you say?

Rob DeFreese

Oh yeah, she's been a huge part of what we do. And like she said, we knew each other before Nutrien. And Melody knows the seed. And in terms of the seed, I just say, “Melody, what do you think I should plant?” And I just let her go from there. And that's been great that that's one thing that I haven't really had to focus on.

And then when she started working on Nutrien, I mean, I had and still do have a lot of questions about products. And so I was like, all right, she's my go to. And yeah, like she said, it might be daily. And I come to her with questions and say, “Look this up.” And she's been able to go to the right people and find the answers to those questions.

And we've tried them and we've seen if they've worked and we've done soil sampling and other things to kind of back up and validate what we've done. So yeah, it's been a really good partnership.

Sally Flis

In the application for you guys, it was noted that Rob, and we talked about this on a panel that we just were on together recently at a conference, that you do a lot of research before you're adding anything new and the scale at which you want to try and do research. And I think when we asked, we're looking for contestants, I guess, for the podcast, it was mentioned that you listen to our podcast pretty regularly.

So thank you for that. But what other resources or podcasts are you looking to for information besides just our FARMSMART Podcast?

Rob DeFreese

Yeah. I'll start by saying that I do enjoy the FARMSMART Podcast, so that's one that I always try to stay up on.

Dusty Weis

We hate to hear that, Rob. It's really tough for us to hear that.

Rob DeFreese

Yeah, it all fits what we're trying to do. So I've always been the type of person that would like to read farm magazines and filter through those.

And then about five years ago, I found this little purple button on my phone that said podcasts and clicked on that and started poking around. And that has really opened up a lot of information for me to tune into. And it's something I can do when I'm outside taking care of livestock or driving a tractor, semi or anything like that. So to be hands-free and doing some of those tasks and learning at the same time has been great.

But in terms of the other podcasts that I listen to, my other go-to is the Regenerative Ag Podcast, and it's by John Kempf, and…

Advancing Eco Ag, he's a really good one to listen to.

Singular, Mutiny Crop consultants, they've all got some good stuff online.

And then another one, I don't know if they have a podcast, but they put a lot of content online is BW Fusion.

So the interesting thing about all of them is like they're all saying the same message. And, you know, that's good for me because when you get 4 or 5 people all saying the same thing, I mean, that starts to validate what we're doing and what Nutrien’s saying and how that aligns that everybody's going in the right direction.

Dusty Weis

And if you see me jotting notes over here, it's because these are some good recommendations for podcasts, and I'm going to check them out in a little while here. But I also understand that in the course of your research, you went all the way to Texas to visit the Agricen facility where some of your products are being made.

What inspired you to make that trip and what did you learn? What'd you take away from it?

Rob DeFreese

Yeah, so I heard the guys at Nutrien talking about that and that they sent some people down there. I was like, "Sign me up, I want to go.”

And the main reason for that was obviously I mean, farming, we work all the time. We really don't get off the farm or go on vacations or see other places.

So I was like, A, it's a good excuse to leave and see some new scenery. But the main thing was that everybody talks about snake oils and “That's a waste of money and these products don't work.” And so I was like, all right, if I'm going to learn about these products, I need to go straight to the source and see what it's all about.

And I was definitely blown away when I got down there learning about how they make it, whatit's made from and what they're really trying to do. It's like, okay, Nutrien is serious about this. I don't know why any company would invest as much time and money and effort into something that they don't believe is beneficial long term.    

And the big “aha” for me was, we've used some chicken litter and different manure products in the past and got along really good, and when they were telling us how they made this, I was like, “Well, what's your base ingredient? What do you start with?” And they're like, “We get loads of dairy manure from the local dairy and that starts the whole process.”

And it was like, boom, light bulb went off in my head. It's like this is exactly what we're trying to do. So yeah, it was definitely a great experience for me to go down there and meet the team down there and see exactly what was going on there.

Dusty Weis

Well, and I'll tell you, Rob, one of my favorite things about recording this podcast with Sally here has been the exact same thing: Getting to take little field trips and get out into the world and see how things are done in other parts of the world, because I think that sometimes that's the best way to learn a little bit is to expose yourself to a situation that maybe you haven't been exposed to in the past.

But some great background there about your operation in Indiana and when we come back, we want to learn a little bit more about the specific practices that you've been using to drive sustainable success on your farm.

That's coming up in a minute here on the FARMSMART Podcast.

Dusty Weis

This is the FARMSMART Podcast, and I'm Dusty Weis along with Sally Flis, and we're talking today with Rob DeFreese, a grower from Indiana and one of our latest Sustainable Success Champions, as well as Melody Clouser, Rob's crop consultant from the Central Indiana division.

And since we're diving a little bit deeper into exactly what you've got going on on your farm, what can you tell us about the soil health challenges that you're dealing with growing corn and beans in Central Indiana, Rob?

Rob DeFreese

Yeah, so I mentioned a little bit earlier, a lot of the ground that I farm has been converted pasture and hay ground. And so there's quite a bit of variability in terms of elevation and soil types and just the history on those acres. So obviously for me it is like the high ground is a little bit more fragile and is prone to erosion and drought and the low ground, it has a tendency to get wet and compacted.

And so what one thing could I do that could solve all of those problems? And it's like, oh, you got to take care of the soil biology, because I've seen that firsthand on some of the best yielding ground that I had was the ground that had been in pasture and that we took care of and that we fed cattle all winter and let it rest all summer.

And then some of the worst ground that we had was the ground that we made hay off of, and just kept taking off every year and not really adding back to it. So having those kind of “aha” moments to me was like, okay, we need to mimic what made the good ground so good to begin with and get a cover crop going and try to eliminate things that would cause compaction or erosion.

And so that's when I really started diving into the soil health principles and mimicking nature, and just trying to take care of that biology to make all the ground as productive and profitable as I could.

Sally Flis

Rob, on the farm, you guys are doing rotational soil sampling, using tissue tests in season, cover crops for more than ten years, minimum till and no till, only working that ground when you really need to. Melody, what are some of the questions around these practices or things like soil sampling and tissue testing, which are services that Nutrien helps provide to grow our customers, that Rob's called you in through the years as you've moved on this timeline of implementation with him?

Melody Clouser

Yeah, I mean, he's experienced a lot of different species with the cover crop. So there's questions that he will ask me about, “Okay, well if we add another legume, what's it going to do?” And other things that he'll ask me about.

We've started implementing the soil biome reports and soil sampling. So we've went over to Champaign and met with Lizzie French and have done a deep dive into, okay, what are these reports telling us? Because soil health and the soil biology is very important to Rob. And so it's kind of like, alright, this is something that we can do.

But with Nutrien we have a lot of people and resources that we can go to. So I do rely heavily on Lizzie French and some of that stuff when I have questions on what does this report tell me and what do we change to make it better?

Sally Flis

So, of those four practices, Rob, what has been the easiest and most profitable for you to implement and what has been the hardest and maybe the one that you almost abandoned during implementation?

Rob DeFreese

So I'd say the easiest one to do and the most beneficial thing that a person can do on their operation is just plant a cover crop. I mean, that is going to be the most bang for your buck. I know it might be hard to get out there in the fall, but if you find a way that fits your operation to get that cover crop out there and let it go to work for you.

It provides so many benefits, and it will help eliminate so many things that are detrimental to soil health and biology. To me, that's the easiest, cheapest, and highest return on your investment.

In terms of some of the harder ones, the soil sampling is easy, but there's just so much data on it, and I don't know that I still have a good handle on what all the numbers mean and where they need to be.

It's not a one size fits all. I think a lot of that can be: What are your ratios on the report and how does that fit to your soil?

One of the biggest takeaways I've got from some of the soil sampling that we've done is that a lot of our soils are high magnesium. Well, why are they high magnesium? How did they getthere? And it can be various different reasons. It could be high mag lime that we've applied in the past not knowing that we shouldn't have been applying it, but high magnesium in your soil can cause so many detrimental effects in terms of nutrient tie up and tight soils that don't allow for water infiltration.

So there's a lot of different things out there that we've done and tried. And yeah, it's a learning process for sure.

Dusty Weis

You told us, Rob, that when you were getting started 15, 16 years ago, that one of the goals that you set for yourself was to be more profitable and certainly working the acreage that you work, that's something that's going to make a difference for you and your bottom line.

So all this extra effort that you've put in, the extra outlay that you've laid into getting these practices underway, has that been reflected back to you in your bottom line?

Rob DeFreese

Yeah, I think it has. I mean, people can say, well, that's added cost and added money, but I spent a lot of time trying to look into either government programs or other sources of funding that can help pay for some of this stuff and cost share and justify it.

But to me, when I implement these practices, looking at the cash outlay, it wasn't in addition to my budget that I already had. I kind of looked at it as more of a reallocation of funds.

So how can I justify this? How can I use less chemical? How can I use less fertilizer? So that was the biggest thing for me is how can I reduce money spent on inputs and at the same time making the soil more profitable not only in the short term, but in the long term as well.

Sally Flis

Melody, how has the work that you've done with Rob on his farm and the practices and programs that he's tried impacted your work with other grower customers that you work with at the branch that you're located in?

Melody Clouser

I definitely, especially on the sustainability side of it, I would say if there's other growers that have questions or are wanting to even try cover crops then I'm usually the one that gets asked because I have probably the most experience.

The same side of it is there's some growers that are like-minded, like Rob. They know that I've been working with Rob and so they know like okay, kind of the similar things like trying to add to my bottom line. Don't want to add any more chemical or fungicide fertilizer any more than we need to. And just really trying to increase that soil health.

I mean, those growers will have a tendency to ask me questions, and a lot of the other crop consultants, if they have growers that are starting to go down that path, then yeah, I've been kind of a resource for them on that side of things.

Dusty Weis

Well, and I would imagine that when they've got questions about it, sometimes it's easier to show than to tell. Rob seems like the kind of guy who's more than willing to host a field trip out to his operation there, and I'd imagine that's helpful for you. But I also understand, Rob, that you've been active locally in promoting these kinds of practices with other growers.

How did that start? And how are you getting the word out about what you've got going on on your operation?

Rob DeFreese

Yeah. So a couple things there. I mean, some of my closest friends that I have to this day were ones that I grew up with in the community and went to school with, and those same families, they're still farming today.

And whether it's their own operation or they're working for another operation, I can still call those guys because I see them and I drive past what they're doing, and we have those conversations as to “what have you tried and what's your goals?”

And then the other part of that is that the majority of our ground is right on the state highway. So that's kind of a blessing and a curse, because when you have a success, everybody sees it. Definitely when you have a failure, or I guess I would like to call it more of a learning experience, you definitely hear about those ones.

That's something that's kind of been a little challenging, that has put me on the hot seat. But I guess at the same time, like you said, it is a good way to host a little bit of a field trip when you got that much traffic driving by your operation every day.

Sally Flis

So, Rob, I think I asked you a very similar question when we were just on a panel together, but if you were to do one thing different when you came back to the farm and started this journey, what would you do differently in the way that you implemented the practices on your farm over time?

Rob DeFreese

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, looking back on that, I remember the first year that I lowered chemical and fertilizer rates, and I was so scared that I was going to have a crop failure because you listen and you read about things, and that you have to apply these products at maximum rates, and you have to apply X amount of fertilizer for removal.

And that just wasn't in my budget for that year. And that was something that I couldn't afford to do, so I guess I wish I could look back and tell myself that it was going to be okay, and that I was going to raise a crop regardless of what I went ahead and put out there. And to understand that soil biology is a pretty powerful thing.

If you take care of that biology and do the right thing, it has a pretty amazing way of coming in and covering your mistakes. Whether that's a lack of fertilizer or a lack of some other input. Mother nature is pretty powerful, and she's going to take care of you at the end of the day.

Dusty Weis

Well I think that's great advice for anybody else who's thinking about starting down this road here. And certainly the success that you've had over the last 15, 16 years stands as a great testament to the power of these practices.

But Rob DeFreese, one of our sustainable success champions for this year, as well as Melody Clouser, your crop consultant, thank you both for joining us here on this episode of the FARMSMART Podcast.

Rob DeFreese

Thank you.

Melody Clouser

Thank you.

Dusty Weis

And that is going to conclude this episode of The FARMSMART Podcast. New episodes arrive every month, so make sure you subscribe to The FARMSMART Podcast in your favorite app and visit (NutrienAgSolutions.com/FARMSMART) to learn more.

The FARMSMART Podcast is brought to you by Nutrien Ag Solutions.

With editing by Matt Covarrubias.

And the FARMSMART Podcast is produced by Podcamp Media, branded podcast production

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I’m Dusty Weis. For Nutrien Ag Solutions, thanks for listening.